Industry Hall of Fame Inductee - The DL S3E11 is now available on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, IGTV, and YouTube.

 

In this episode of The DL, Diesel Laptops’ Founder and CEO, Tyler Robertson, is joined by Tim Krauss, a Commercial Vehicle Industry Expert and semi-retired, former HDMA President and COO to talk everything about HDMA and HDAW.

As always thank you for watching and listening!

CONNECT WITH TIM KRAUSS:

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-kraus-6970ba15/

Website – https://www.hdma.org

Transcript for Industry Hall of Fame Inductee - The DL S3E11:

Tyler Robertson:

Welcome to the DL. I am your host, Tyler Robertson, also the CEO and founder of Diesel Laptops, and this is the podcast show where we talk about everything to do with the heavy duty truck and repair and equipment industry. So before I even start this though, I just want to make one little announcement. I know you don't ever get to see her, I mention her name once in a while, but Shauna, who's behind the scenes here, did get married. They actually drove across the country all the way from South Carolina to Vegas. They're both, let's just say collector car enthusiasts, drove all the way out there, got married, had some adventures. So Shauna, glad to get you back. Congratulations on getting married. I know those are huge life events you'll remember for the rest of your life. I remember mine 20 years ago, which I just celebrated.

Tyler Robertson:

So it's a fun adventure, to say the least. But with all that said, it's not too often I get really industry leaders in here, people that have been around, people that know the space and the gentleman I'm going to introduce you to here in a second, most of you, if you're involved in heavy duty parts at all, you already know him. He's the former president and CEO of HDMA, Heavy Duty Manufacturers Association, and he is one of only 14 members recently inducted into the Heavy Duty Aftermarket industry hall of fame. So Tim Kraus, welcome to the DL.

Tim Krauss:

Hey, thanks, Tyler. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me on.

Tyler Robertson:

Well, and in full disclosure, we joined HDMA a couple years back. So you did a terrific job. And actually the person we used to work with on your side, Beth, now actually works for us. So it's kind of like this full circle thing I feel like going around here, but you retired last year and there was this virtual thing we did and everything. How has it been, one year later? I've always talked to people that retired. My dad had a bunch of employees when I was growing up, oh, they'd come back after the office, six months later, what are you doing? They're like, "Well, I'm fishing, kind of bored. What's going on?" So I'm always curious. How is life going? How are things happening for you, one year in?

Tim Krauss:

Well, we sold our place in North Carolina and moved down to our place in Florida, full-time, so that's been really nice. And the weather of course is wonderful down here. And three of our kids, four of my kids, two of my wife's and my kids are up in Minnesota. So when it was 81 degrees here a few weeks ago, it was 15 below zero there. So that part was kind of fun, but the weather is awesome here until you get in the middle of summer. Then it's like North Carolina summers, very hot, but I get to still interact with a lot of the people in the industry and a lot of my former members and a lot of, particularly, with a lot of the board members and former board members of HDMA and then surprisingly enough, I wasn't sure how I was perceived in distributor community, but I've got quite a few people that I've been in contact with relative to that.

Tim Krauss:

So that part's been kind of fun. The tough part about retiring that's out there, I waited five years longer than I should have. Now I realize that, but is, trying to go from fifth gear down to first gear, is about like trying to do it from 70 miles an hour. You can do it if you let the clutch out really slow. And it was a little bit of a transition for me because I was so incredibly busy, kind of like you are now all the time, when I was at HDMA and then getting down to the point where my most important events during the week are Mondays and Thursdays. Mondays, I take out the actual garbage, Thursdays, I take out the garbage and the recycling. And I've got a few other things that I have to do during the week, but that's a lot different than having a pad in front of me that's got six things on it to do this morning and having my left ear, my hearing is finally coming back in my left ear after having my telephone up to my ear for the last, at least, 25 years constantly.

Tim Krauss:

So yeah, it's a little bit different, but it's very relaxing. I have absolutely nothing, but just the most fond memories of everything that I did in the industry. And I was at HDAW last week and I realized that I do have a few friends because it was no different than when I was working. I couldn't make it 10, 15 feet without stopping and talking to somebody for 20 minutes or so. So it's been good.

Tyler Robertson:

Well, let's talk a little bit about industry, right? You brought up HDAW. I was just there last week as well. Great event, great to be back in person with everybody. I know it was virtual last year. Good to see it going the direction that it is. So you were with HDMA for about 18 years there. I know-

Tim Krauss:

17.

Tyler Robertson:

17, yeah. I mean, so can you explain to everyone, there's HDMA, there's MEMA, there's Heavy Duty Aftermarket Week and Heavy Duty Aftermarket Dialogue. Did all that exist when you first got in there or did things change and progress, or what was the evolution there? Because it's a great week long event that essentially is put on by several organizations.

Tim Krauss:

Sure. I'll start with HDAW. It did not exist until 2006 was the first year for it. I started at HDMA in 2004, but in 2002, I was on the HDMA board of directors. And then we formed a group of aftermarket suppliers and started working with a couple of people, Dave Shear from truck parts and a couple of other guys on the concept of putting together HDAW. And somehow or another, and I guess that's another story, but Pete Joy talked me into taking the job of executive director at HDMA. And when I started, the only thing I did for the first two years was work on putting HDAW together. And HDAW basically takes probably right now in the neighborhood of 10 annual meetings away from what used to be held during other parts of the year and those are now being held during Heavy Duty Aftermarket Week.

Tim Krauss:

So there's a lot of distributor and service organizations as, as well as HDMA and the Autocare Association, Automotive Warehouse Distributors Association, part of the Autocare Association. We two are, excuse me. We two, along with the Commercial Vehicle Solutions Network, CVSN, are the three owners of HDAW. By owners, that means that we're the ones that are responsible for coordinating everything. Of course, we've got all the financial responsibility for it, as well as working on all the major mechanical and content detail for all of it. And then there's a committee called the joint operating committee, which is a couple of people from each of 10 different organizations that meet several times during the year, once or twice in person. And then usually conference calls, things of that nature on putting the content for HDAW together.

Tim Krauss:

So I worked very hard the whole time I was there at making sure that the owners didn't take over everything that was going on with HDAW and made sure that everybody's voice was heard and that we were doing as many things as we could do to keep as much of the organization happy as possible. As far as the organization called the joint operating committee, which is the heads of all of the other industry organizations. The buying group, there's three different buying groups that are involved. There's several different distributor groups. The Association of Diesel Specialists just joined last year as part of the joint operating committee, and you're familiar with all of them. So we worked really, really hard to make sure that it was an attractive enough meeting that we wouldn't end up with a bunch of them splintering off to the side. There've been a couple of little ones that have formed to the side of HDAW, couple of them with the members of the organization of the joint operating committee, but all in all, I mean, you've been to it now. And I, by the way, distinctly remember talking you into going to it at the heavy duty forum meeting in, I don't even remember what city it was in, but I've been in so dang many cities, all I can remember is the hotel.

Tyler Robertson:

I remember you talking to me and I was like, "Well, I don't know. We kind of got this little parts thing. We're trying to figure it out." We were just, I think, feeling our way through the whole world. And it took us, our company, even from that point to today, a couple years to really figure out, well, parts are actually a very important piece of everything that goes on on the repair process, because there's that huge lag between, I have something broken, I figured it out and now I got to go source my part. And there's just a lot of inefficiencies that happen in that whole process. So what you've done for HDAW and just the industry in general was really, really needed. Consolidations, better communications, some new ways to talk to people and explore, and all these things that need to happen. So before you went to work there 17 years ago, though, you worked at, I think, parts manufacturers, right? So how does one make the leap from parts manufacturers to, "I'm going to go help our entire industry be a better place"?

Tim Krauss:

Well, I owned my own service stations back in the seventies. And I was going to night school at the same time at the University of Minnesota. And I worked during the day, and unless I had classes during the day, then I worked at night with a partner and got to know the parts and service business real well through that. After the Arab oil embargo was all tied up and my numbers looked really great, somebody came along and offered me an obscene amount of money for my partnership in the two Texaco stations and I sold out. And when I did that, one of my primary suppliers was a friction distributor, went to work for them and went around and called on shops and dealerships and things like that, selling brakes, and a lot of other parts. In the process, somehow or another, I attracted attention and was recruited by a company that no longer exists as a separate entity, McCord Gaskets, and went to work for McCord, because I did know a thing or two about engines and all of that kind of stuff.

Tim Krauss:

And worked for McCord for eight years. I was recruited away from McCord Gaskets by Phillips and Temro Industries, started there as a national sales manager in 1983. I left there in 1998 and was recruited by a seal manufacturer, Tri Seal, up in Hebrew, Illinois, and moved to up there, worked there for five years. But during the time that I was at Phillips and Temro Industries, as well as at Tri Seal, I was very active in a lot of activities with the Heavy Duty Manufacturers Association, a lot of it on the government affairs side of things, but more in the overall community, talking with suppliers, getting all kinds of ideas. I was fortunate in 1990 to be put into an organization, or voted into an organization, called the Heavy Duty Business Forum, which is one of the big councils run by HDMA.

Tim Krauss:

If Beth, by the way, hasn't tried talking you into joining the Heavy Duty Business Forum, she'll try pretty soon. But that's a group of 55 CEOs of member companies that get together a couple of times a year and exchange ideas. And the express purpose of it is to keep everybody informed on major trends, but to make better executive side of everyone that is involved in it. I benefited greatly from all of that. Also got quite a bit of exposure, I served on the board for the business forum, which basically puts together the programs that they have twice a year. And in doing that was asked to join the HDMA board of directors, which I did and worked my way through the chairs from secretary to vice chair to chairman. I was chairman in 2000, I guess. And in 2001, was in the process of handing the reins over to a new chairman who switched jobs and went to a different industry.

Tim Krauss:

And somehow or another, probably during a cocktail party or something, was talked into taking on another year as chairman, so I served two years as chairman. And then after I left, I thought finally, because that was like having this a second job. After that, I ended up on the chairman's or, I'm sorry, the HDMA chairman's advisory council, which consisted of about three people, one of whom, and you probably know Pete Joy, Pete basically put the hard press on me to consider taking the place of the retiring executive director at HDMA. And I'd already been involved with them for 12, 13 years. I'd been in the industry my whole career, if I did join HDMA, I was one of the few guys in the organization that had those credentials. But I did start in 2004 at HDMA as the executive director, we had about 40 members at that time.

Tim Krauss:

We were part of the larger organization, MEMA, the Motor Equipment Manufacturers Association, which was basically made up of parts suppliers to the automotive industry, which included heavy duty as well as light vehicle and both the aftermarket and the original equipment side. And my engagement in it was just a continuation of work that we had had done on the board, which was to separate HDMA, the original equipment suppliers association, which is the light vehicle OEM side, the automotive aftermarket suppliers association away from one identity and have them as separate divisions of MEMA. And we successfully did that. And over a period of 17 years that I was there, we couldn't uphold the number of members that we had and the revenue that went along with that. A lot of that had to do with HDAW and attracting people, but about half of my time was spent on, and HDMA's time was spent on the original equipment business, the other half on the aftermarket business. So that's in a nutshell, everything that I did during my career without getting too terribly long-winded, although, I've never been accused of not being long-winded.

Tyler Robertson:

Yeah. So we're working with some new organizations and they got great intentions, they have a great cause and a great thing they want to do. And I think when I look at it, I know they're both struggling a little bit to grow their membership, and obviously you were able to do that with your organization over your 17 year career there. Is there any opinion or advice you'd give these younger organizations that are out there trying grow and expand, now that you've been through that process?

Tim Krauss:

Well, I think that the biggest mistake everyone makes is, well, it's a couple of things. One of them is being unintentionally a little bit disingenuous about what their actual goal is as an over all organization. They all come up with slogans and catch phrases and things like that as to what it is that they do. The other one is a lack of focus on what is it that you're good at. And you've been very successful with your own company and not branching off in a whole lot of different directions and trying to do everything to keep everybody happy. You picked out what it was that you were aiming at with these laptops. That's pretty much what I did with HDMA. There were several problems that were going on at that particular time. There was some government affairs stuff, probably not the least of which was the 2004, 2007 and 2010 emissions regulations, which in retrospect was probably the overall industry largest engineering project that has ever occurred in the industry, to make everything compliant with what a bunch of people who had a very low opinion of diesel trucks. In the process, they did actually clean things up quite a bit with low sulfur diesel fuel, and then all the re-engineering that had to take place on the engines.

Tim Krauss:

But we were actively involved in all of that. We did stall a few of those things from going through too quickly. We didn't accomplish as much as we'd like to accomplish because most of it went into effect within a year or two after I started at HDMA. I was fortunate in that the same day that I started at HDMA, a new government affairs person started there and Ann Wilson, you've met Ann, Ann has a huge amount of experience in the industry. She was with the American Trucking Association for quite some time and government affairs there. She was with the Household Movers Conference, she was with the Rubber Manufacturer's Association and came to work at MEMA as the head of government affairs. And the only guy that ran any part of the business that she knew anything about as far as the industry was concerned, was heavy duty.

Tim Krauss:

So I benefited greatly from Ann having, at the very beginning, a very, very solid understanding of the overall industry. So she helped us shepherd a few things through, again, we were a little bit late in the game putting the focus on stuff, but the stopping distance rule for trucks, you may or may not be familiar with that. That was about a 10 year process. It was an HDMA council with the assistance of governor affairs office in Washington for MEMA that made them really think very seriously because the initial intent of that particular piece of regulation was to get every truck to convert over to disc brakes, which was crazy. And we managed to show that there were alternatives to disc brakes because there were a lot of people making disc brakes, but there were also a lot of people that had huge interest in the engineering and manufacturing of drum brakes, and a lot of other things that went along with that.

Tim Krauss:

So our role in Washington, that's kind of encapsulated in what I just said, was making sure that the policy makers there really understood the implications of everything that they were working on. And there have been some crazy ideas that have come up, where either on the technology side or the practical side, where we have been able to provide enough information for them to cause them to rethink what it is that they were doing. Biggest achievement that we made though was working with NTSA, which is the safety division of the department of transportation and getting it so that we were rather than just working lawyer to lawyer, we were working engineer to engineer. So we had a very good council, the Heavy Duty Brake Manufacturers Council that worked with engineers at NTSA on implementing, designing, and implementing the stopping distance rule, making it so that it wasn't impossible. In a nutshell, to close on that particular thought, the best explanation that I ever heard came from a non-engineer person that was involved in the discussions with them and said, you guys want a heavy truck to stop at 275 feet, we can do that. It's the 80,000 pounds behind it that doesn't stop that fast. And that stopped everybody and made them think about maybe we might want to consider physics in all of this too.

Tim Krauss:

So that was a good accomplishment, so we worked an awful lot on the government affairs side of things, and they're very, very firmly entrenched now as experts. We actually hired a chief technology officer, brilliant guy, Brian Daherty, works very closely with the Washington office and making sure that when technology is being discussed at the regulatory or at the legislative level, that the people that are involved understand exactly what it is that they're talking about. And he's wonderful, he's able to, he's one of these guys that's scary smart. I'm sure you've got a couple of people working for you like that, but he has the ability to be able to explain things in layman terms. In other words, when he explains how something works to me, I understand it. And I'm just a little bit above the coloring book requirement level on that kind of stuff, but he's done a fantastic job. So MEMA overall, and HDMA overall, have done, I think a pretty good job of staying focused on what their core strengths were. One of them is on the government affairs side, the other one is staying focused on important issues to the supplier community, rather than trying to go broadly after the entire industry and fix everything that's broken in it, listening to suppliers and advancing the ideas that they have to improve their businesses and bottom lines, as well as the overall industry.

Tyler Robertson:

Well, I know in today's political climate, it's great that we have organizations actually talking about physics, basic math, and just the way things work, right? That really helps. Just in all serious, know that it's appreciated. And I think, and we're going to talk a little bit here about current challenges and future challenges with supply chain and electrification, all these other things, but going back, you made a comment about '04, '07, '10 and even '13. And I think a lot of people that are in the industry now weren't there in '04 when that whole thing went down at first. And when you look back at it, we had to have all new ultra low sulfur diesel distributed everywhere. We had to have new engine oils that came into account. We had to have new technology that was put into every diesel engine produced in North America. And by the way-

Tim Krauss:

Complete new line of every engine.

Tyler Robertson:

Yeah. And we had to go train everybody on all these things. I mean, you're right. That was, I wasn't involved on that side, I was just working at a dealership selling trucks and complaining about it. So that must have been a monumental thing that just had to be this big ripple effect across the industry when it all kind of went down, I guess, in the late nineties, early two thousands, when that first happened.

Tim Krauss:

Yeah. It was discussed for several years before all of that. You mentioned Heavy Duty Dialogue a little bit earlier. One of the primary things that the HDMA board of directors did was put together the Heavy Duty Dialogue programs. I was engaged in that for quite some time. And we probably over a three year period of time had six or seven different segments of that dialogue programs, which was held annually in Atlanta at that time, that dealt with the challenges involved with the implementation of the new regulations. And we had real experts. We had the people running the engine side of the business for Caterpillar and [inaudible 00:23:12] engine company, both sitting on a panel together. They were a two person panel with a moderator. We all kept praying for a cat fight when that occurred, but we didn't. They were just basically relating the challenges and what they were doing to address them.

Tim Krauss:

We had the heads of engineering from the engine companies and the truck companies and panels, and had a very good journalist, you weren't around the industry at the time, but Jim Windsor worked for Heavy Duty Trucking magazine, was one of these true old fashioned journalists where he asked nothing but stinging questions and managed to, and we didn't have it recorded at the time, but managed to get one of the legendary cat fights that occurred between all of those guys telling each other how crappy their solution for the problems were and all of that type of thing. And then it did result to shouting and somebody sitting on a kill switch, because profanity started to come out during all that. It was an unbelievable period of time. And it all resulted from a couple of people driving through the Washington DC area, not being able to understand why when a truck took off from the stop sign there was black smoke that came out of the stacks.

Tim Krauss:

Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel took care of that. That was all you saw was particular sulfur burning, going up into the atmosphere and all the rest of it, took it down to the emissions of NOX and particulate mattered down to a point where, the story is, and I guess that it was actually true at the time, that you could park a class eight truck in downtown Los Angeles, and the exhaust air was cleaner than the ambient air in LA. So now they want to go to electric vehicles to solve even more of the problems, which we can talk about that sometime later. But the fact of the matter is that we're dealing with not necessarily a political issue, other than by definition politics play into it, where there is one side versus the other side, not having anything to do with political parties, but one side insisting that all these things need to be done.

Tim Krauss:

And the other side saying, "We don't need to do those things. This thing will fix that problem." And that's going to be the next great debate is if they start working on lobbying Congress in the administration about eliminating diesel engines, like they've done in Europe, and convince some of the truck companies to do that, the only way they're ever going to be able to get everything to convert over to electric power is by legislating and then providing financial incentives to be able to do it. So I'm glad that one is up to my successor as far as the next fight is concerned because the through '10 and '13 regulations, as well as the newer ones that are coming in right now, that took up a huge amount of resources as far as the association was concerned.

Tyler Robertson:

So you're walking around HDAW this week. Obviously shaking a lot of hands, kissing a lot of babies, doing the things that Tim does there. What are you hearing from manufacturers? Is supply chain, I mean, that's what we hear from our customers all the time, "I can't get this part. I can't buy new trucks. Used truck prices have doubled in value." Is it supply chains, that number one thing that you were hearing at HDAW last week, or is it some other things? What's tip of everyone's tongue currently?

Tim Krauss:

Well, we've been involved as an overall organization in the shortage of chips and microprocessor parks and all that type of thing for the last couple of years. I've been just amazed that it turned into a crisis in the last, according to the news media, in the last few months, but that one has caused an awful lot of trouble. And the reason that it caused a lot of trouble, and I'm glad to see that there's some work being done in this particular area, is that the companies that did all of that manufacturing took it all offshore to low cost countries. It is why you can buy a laptop for $700 now, where I think my first one was about 10,000. Is that the stuff is all being done, first of all, in mass production, second of all being done in low cost countries, third of all, almost all of it being done robotically.

Tim Krauss:

So there's very little labor involved in all of it. And I don't know how far you want me to go into that particular end of things, but that's probably the biggest single challenge for anybody that's evolved in any technology, which is almost everything on a truck now. The supply chain issue, we put a great big hole in the supply chain for two, three months in the beginning of COVID, the matter of the lack of flexibility in the overall system, as far as supply chain is concerned, has caused an awful lot of challenges for a lot of segments of the overall industry, little things, they made it so that it was illegal to use anything older than a 2010 truck in California. If you've been out to the docks in Long Beach or in LA, the fourth owner, the second, third and fourth owner of a truck, the fourth owner of the truck is the guy that hauls container chassis with a container on it over to the rail yard and does about 25 or 30 of those a day. He does not do that with $120,000 truck.

Tim Krauss:

He does that with the cheapest thing he can get his hands on. They eliminated all of those guys by enacting that, so companies had to buy newer trucks and individuals had to buy newer trucks that they were going to participate in it at that level. The other thing was, as the union issues where they were requiring at one point, I don't know if they still are, but they were requiring union drivers in certain aspects of it. So the docks are a problem, the nearly 100 boats that have been parked off shore for a while, waiting to get in, is a problem. Being able to handle all of the logistics from the docks to the other end of the country has been a real issue. But probably the biggest single issue, and this is my own opinion, is that we have shipped so much manufacturing out of the country, that we don't have the ability to rapidly respond to anything.

Tim Krauss:

And we're paying the price for it now. Where it used to take two weeks to get something done here, it could take two months because of transit and all the rest of those types of things, lot sizes that are required overseas. So I was happy to see that there's some initiatives in place right now to bring a lot of that manufacturing back here. I think it makes financial sense for companies to do that type of thing, but we've shunned off all of the commodity type items to offshore and we do the specialty type items here. You'd never, for example, be able to ship your business off to a foreign country, to have it done because you require a local expertise and things like that. And that's what the majority of the manufacturing that's being done in the United States is being done that way, either that, or by the weight of the product. Makes no sense to make an axle in China and send it back over here.

Tim Krauss:

And so those are being done here, but the supply chain thing is really something that you can probably blame COVID for some of it. But I think what happens when there's a disruption in a global supply chain, that everything is trying to come back into this country is probably the root cause of all of those problems. And that's a gross over simplification of all of it, but we need to be making more things here. I don't know if you have kids, but we have two girls that played traveling soccer and for several years, we drove to every small town all over the Southeast of the United States. The one thing that I noticed in every town that we went through was there was always at least one or two empty factory buildings. There was always an empty Ford dealership and an empty General Motors dealership that occurred. And those are unrelated as far as the cause behind them, but we've gone the bigger is better route with almost everything, and the small manufacturers are not playing as big a role. And I think you'll see in the future, a lot of that stuff coming back, and it's going to be with entrepreneurs doing those types of things. As many chips as you use, you should be getting into the chip manufacturing business.

Tyler Robertson:

We should. I mean, it was really frustrating. We spent years developing this little Bluetooth chip and we had to distribute through Darman, and Darman literally, we thought it was a year supply, they sold out 90 days. They give us a PO, seven figure PO, we're giving high fives. Supply chain, right? They're telling us a year to get more product in and we're working through all those things. And then it's really, I mean, there's a lot of variables there and I'm really excited. We have the chief of the port of LA is coming on one of my episodes here pretty soon. So I'm curious to pick his brain a little bit on when it's going to get better and everything there.

Tim Krauss:

Yeah. We had him at HDAW.

Tyler Robertson:

Yeah, yeah. So I'm excited to get him on here. And then it's other things-

Tim Krauss:

Noticed he didn't show up in person.

Tyler Robertson:

He said it was because of COVID restrictions. We all gave him a hard time, obviously, right? He was going to get beat up over there. So one of the other things that I've noticed is a situation like we have with a certain engine manufacturer, they make DEF sensors, the DEF sensors are unavailable due to supply chain and thousands of trucks are down to derate some and all of a sudden, no aftermarket can make them because they're trademarked and patented and all these things. So it's a really interesting time and place for all of us to be into. Well, all of that said, I just, again, want to thank Tim for coming on. It's been great talking to him, picking his brain, seeing where the industry's been, seeing where it's going. If you're trying to contact him or you want to look him up, you can definitely go on LinkedIn, Tim Kraus, look for him on there.

Tyler Robertson:

He's all over LinkedIn, easy to find guy. At the end of the day though, you got to keep in mind, this is an industry constantly evolving and changing. We got through '04, we got through '07, we got through '10, we got through '13. We're going to get through electrification. We're going to get through the supply chain. Our industry always figures it out. There's no doubt. And as Tim was sharing, sometimes it's screaming and profanity yelling and everything else going on, but we do work through these problem. That's what we do in our industry. So with all that said, thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. Like, comment, share, anything you can do helps us to grow our audience at all is very much appreciated. And as we end every episode, it's just not diagnostics, it's diagnostics done right. And we'll see you on the next episode.